How do you reach a younger arts audience? Do you create a play to be performed physically on stage? Or can theatre be created exclusively for online platforms too? That's a few of the questions we'll be exploring on today's episode.
This time we talk about an online play created on Facebook, written in texts and emojis. It was released at the height of a national lockdown, and has since become a great example of what's really possible when you work remotely.
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 00:37
The question that's lived at the heart of it is 'how is digital theatre different from film?' I think all of these previously quite clear boundaries are in the process of blurring.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 00:58
Hello, I'm Claire Freeman, an audio freelancer with The Space and agency which supports arts and cultural organisations in making the best digital work they can. We fund, we mentor, we help build partnerships and share our knowledge across the sector. And that's how we connected with today's guest Emma Callander and her team at Theatre Uncut.
They - just like you can, by the way - applied through our website, thespace.org for one of our commissioning rounds for support on a big and bold idea. But it wasn't just money that they needed, they actually really needed a helping hand in understanding how to make their dreams come true. And so on this episode we hear from Emma on some of the questions, the struggles that they had, how they overcame them, and the advice that she'd offer others now pondering making the same journey. In this conversation. I
'm joined by our chief executive Fiona Morris, and we spoke to Emma just before Christmas to recap just how much the year 2020 has been for the team at Theatre Uncut. Emma started by explaining how they came to work with the writer Kieran Hurley, and what they really loved about his play 'Bubble'.
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 02:17
Well, I guess it all started on Facebook, actually, because we've worked with Kieran Hurley many times over the years. Since his first play he wrote for us in 2012. And Hannah, the other half of Theatre Uncut, and the founder - Hannah Price. She got in touch and said I've just seen on Facebook that Kieran Hurley's got a play that he's seeing if anybody's interested in having a look at. So here it is, and we read it and instantly we were like, 'yup, this is us'. And I think, there's a couple of reasons why we jumped. One is where the company was at.
So we've existed since 2011. We were created in response to the cuts in public spending, hence Theatre Uncut. But we got to a point where we have done lots of short plays. So our model is that we create short plays, written by kind of a range of writers from you know, Caryl Churchill, Mark Ravenhill through to Inua Ellams, Sabrina Mahfouz many, many... 57 altogether, right to very emerging writers like Suhaiymah Manzoor-Khan and Niellah Arboine.
And we were at a point where we were just looking at longer form. And we were thinking, how do we do that? Because we've never been a company to like, put a play on stage in a very traditional way. We do that in our other professional worlds, but not in Theatre Uncut. So we saw 'Bubble' and we were like, wow, okay, so it's set online, it's 45 minutes, it goes into a debate which we feel very passionate about, about the freedom of speech, particularly in the student community, but looking at how that reverberates in a kind of online echo chamber idea. We love Kieran, let's start this conversation. And the play itself, you can hear it even in the trailer,
Audio clip from Bubble 04:03
"I'm blocking you. Typical feminazis B.S. Hannah can say what she wants about killing men. It's totally, totally different. How? Helloo... I honestly do not give a fuck."
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 04:17
You can hear how those characters pop! Kieran is really good at getting under the skin of people. And so the dialogue was snappy. The debate was fierce. The form was really interesting. We're always looking at things where the form and the content marry in that lovely kind of dynamic way. And this does because it's set online about online, talking about the relationship between what you what you allow yourself to say online that you wouldn't say to someone's face, what's the relationship between the online persona and the actual person behind that persona?
And so then when Kieran was just up for giving it a future life after it had been created at the Royal Conservatoire in Scotland. We said yeah, let's start talking. And then started talking with The Space. So, yeah, that idea was created in collaboration with The Space about how it how it ended up to be manifest. But at the beginning, it just ticked a lot of boxes. Yeah,
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 05:21
it's ironic, Fiona, isn't it that here's a play set on Facebook, which was shared and broadcast and published later on Facebook. And then the guys here spotted a post on Facebook by the writer. I mean, other social media platforms are available, we should probably state that - we're not in bed with Facebook, particularly. But Fiona, when you get something that lands on your desk - as someone who commissions and supports artists and theatre directors - how do you kind of say all, this could be a good one?
Fiona Morris, Creative Director of The Space 05:59
Well, I think we had a pre-existing relationship with Emma and Hannah from a project that we had supported, probably 18 months before 'Bubble', I think. And, so we had a sense of where they were at, in the journey that Emma refers to, and that their desire to broaden the reach and range of people that they could be having a conversation with, about the importance of artists, cultural practitioners, being able to speak to topical issues, kind of create new work, given managing talent, a platform.
We sort of knew that was at the heart of their thinking anyway. And so when this project came up, it felt like a perfect example. It's absolutely about great writing, it's absolutely about talking about the significance of live art and culture. But it takes its entire frame of reference from the internet. And that felt like that was a great way of putting something out onto the internet that would probably speak to and attract audiences who might not otherwise come to listen to or look at this kind of art. And, that felt like a bit of a no brainer to want to get behind it and, and see what we could do to help support.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 07:15
We're actually going to share a blog post, which was put on The Space's website, which I think it looked into, the making of 'Bubble' and how it was filmed using smartphones. And I think it's worth pointing out that this was filmed and done before the pandemic, but..... you had your your watch party on the night of 23rd of March when we went into lockdown! But even then you were working as if in lockdown to create this. Many of the cast you never met, or they never met each other, it was filmed very separately. How on earth do you begin to put something like this together? Because most people would just be scratching their beards thinking, where to start, mate.
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 08:09
I think actually, a lot of people are doing it now. But they definitely weren't doing it then. So there's two elements to that choice that we made about how we created it. One was that, in that sense of online debate, there's a kind of distance isn't there around the quality of listening, that people do inside discourse. There's a kind of glitch that quite often happens. And so, we were excited by the idea of having a cast that all knew the script, so they were all working to the same goal. But they weren't actually aware of each other. So they never saw each other. They never heard each other's voices. But they saw the text that the other one would be saying. And the idea behind that is that the form of the piece is not that they're presenting video calls to each other, but they're presenting typed text. So it's as if they're typing, but they're actually speaking. So it's a bit of an odd form.
So when we were trying to pitch this to universities, because we particularly wanted to work with university communities, because of the nature of the theme, being the university community and freedom of speech, then we had to really break it down and convince them that this was even doable, which now feels absurd, because they're all doing it.
So I was talking to one of the universities - York University who got onboard and she was like, 'Yeah, I remember when you came to us with a project, but I really couldn't get my head around it. But that seems crazy now because we're all doing it.'
The second reason (so the first was formally), the second reason was a quiet, nuanced response to Brexit. We wanted to create a piece that crossed borders with our European partners and to say that we were in support of still being able to have free artistic collaboration with our European partners, we didn't want to make a play about Brexit. We didn't feel that that was useful for us or anyone else in that moment, maybe for others Yes, but not for us. But by putting it inside our form of working and collaborating with universities in Barcelona, Copenhagen, and Coimbra, in Portugal, we were just saying to our partners, we are here with you, we we will find ways around this.
So it was those two elements that were that were kind of coming together to make that. So we brought it all together, the blog breaks it down in lots more detail if people are interested in the bits that I won't go into now. But each of the performances was filmed, independently, and then all edited together. And I think Ollie our incredible editor will agree with this, that it was quite a task, to edit together those performances in a way that was dynamic. And, you know, I think we achieved, but it was a big learning curve for us. We learned a lot along the way that we then went on to develop that practice slightly with a piece that we've got live at the moment called 'Safe' by Niellah Arboine that's in a collection called 'Tools for Change' that we've created in collaboration with the Traverse Theatre. And we use the same form, but we just tested out a few different ways of creating that form to make it easier in edit. So yeah, it's a new toolbox, isn't it? It's a new new game to play, and we're loving it.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 11:37
What do you think the role of theatre is in a pandemic?
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 11:44
I think well, I think there's a bigger question even behind that, which is 'what is theatre in a pandemic?' So, off the back of the creation of 'Bubble' because it kind of went viral in its own way, and had many 1000's viewers all across the world, we had lots of universities approach us, from all over the world to do masterclasses and lectures around the this new kind of explosion in the form of digital theatre.
Most recently at the weekend we did one at Princeton, in America, and then have done them across Europe and the UK. And the question that's lived at the heart of it is 'how is digital theatre different from film?' But then if you start really digging behind that question, which is a brilliant question, then you look at how is film different from content? And then I think all of these, all of these previously quite clear boundaries are in the process of blurring. And there are negative elements to that, you know, that there is compromise in both quality and understanding in there. Also I think, something incredibly liberating has happened, where these, these boxes have been smashed as many things have been smashed since March.
So, theatre finds itself in a terrifying position. You know, we're very fortunate, and we understand our fortune. We're a nimble company that have very few overheads. We don't have a big staff. It's just Hannah and I, and then freelancers that we bring in for projects, so we can move fast, and we're not a big ship. We really feel for our colleagues who are either running those big ships, or they're, you know, technicians or designers that aren't able to practice at the moment. But we feel - in the position that we're in - is that theatre is actually - there's an element of it, which is extraordinarily exciting, because it's having to recreate itself in a way that it's very good at, you know.
We're all creative beings that are used to having to be responsive. And so it's, exploring this new form that I think people like Javaad Alipoor particularly is like right at the front end of it, you know, with Kirsty Housley, and many other companies. But actually engaging with this form as a new artistic expression and the capacity that it has, the level of accessibility that it affords, the global reach that it has - always remembering that there's a financial element, that you have to have the device to be able to experience it - we must never forget that when we're talking about accessibility, in terms of in terms of socio economic elements - But, I don't know, it feels like we're a bit of a new frontier at the moment, you know. And then I feel very calmed when I work on developments for plays that will actually go on the stage with actors, you know, adaptations of big novels that will have casts of 14 that I still believe will exist. But that this is like, yes. It's an extraordinarily exciting moment, I think.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 11:52
See, I'm intrigued to know, where does The Space come in? What kind of things did you learn from being supported by associates and mentors and people like Fiona at The Space?
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut15:22
So much, so much. Where do I start? So we came in on this proposal with a wildly ambitious, rather out their project proposal, as is our way.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 15:37
I'm sure Fiona's seen it all?
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 15:39
Yeah, yeah....there was lots of live streaming, there was, you know, multiple performances happening in 10 countries at the same time, you know, it was, a 2 million pound project that we pitched for the low-cost commissioning strand, and brilliantly Fiona saw through that, and saw a way through that. And so I think the first thing was that they really challenged us to realise our ambition and stay true to ourselves and authentic to the root of the proposal, but within the resource that was available.
That was super useful for us to be able to scale that down. And then when we got to that point of going 'okay, so it's a piece that will only be presented online, and it won't be live, there won't be that hybrid version of it', what does that look like? And how does that really focus what our goals are artistically and formally? Both for the piece and for us, as directors and the company itself? How do we marry all those things together?
And then a lots and lots of digital detail and expertise, you know, particularly in the edit, and how that process is best managed. What the viewpoint and perspective of the editor would be that we didn't have at the beginning. But now because we've got the hang of it, you know, that editor probably had quite hard time with us! But the next editor that we worked on afterwards enjoyed the fruits of our labour because that relationship was much clearer. And then things like - it sounds daft - but it's the marketing element.
So something that The Space are always really sharp on is 'don't just create something and then have it exist with nobody seeing it'. Because the internet is this huge dustbin sometimes, isn't it where things can just get lost, totally lost. And there are extraordinary things that have got lost. And so we worked with a really great associate called Holly Close. And the reason I named her is because she's so brilliant. We're working with her right now, as well, again, we've kept that relationship. And just the way that she is able to spark things into life. And it's not just marketing. I think that's what we'd always had in our head was like, 'oh, yeah, but that's just marketing, isn't it, you know, we'll take the money out of that budget, and we'll put it into something fun, like, graphics or something like animation'. But actually, it doesn't matter how good your animation is, if nobody sees it.
So now, understanding what that reach does, for example, Princeton got in touch with us, because she's seen on Facebook. So then we've got a relationship with an extraordinary Professor at Princeton, and that's going to be an ongoing relationship with the company, looking at tales of migration through digital narratives.
So it's not marketing, it's reach, and it's sharing, and it's your relationship with your audience, isn't it? In live theatre, they're, they're looking at you, you're in The Globe doing your soliloquy, and you're looking your audience in the eye. And in digital, it's through these kind of slightly opaque, strange pathways that exist on Facebook and the many other platforms, you know, the Instagrams, and the Twitters and the TikToks. And whatever platform you might be working on. They're your audience. And they're not just viewers. It's a commercial area, and it feels odd to be creative with that audience. But if you start really viewing them as that, being a creative, collaborative relationship, and it can get somewhere really exciting, I think
Fiona Morris, Creative Director of The Space 19:17
it is exactly that. And 10 out of 10 you, that's it, you've graduated, I'm going to send you your Space Academy diploma, with the PhD sticker on it now! Finally, it's amazing. Yeah, that's really, really great, because that's exactly it. You were saying about the boundaries breaking down between traditional artforms, theatre, television, film, and we've seen the film TV boundary collapse with Netflix, we've now seen the traditional live theatre presentation to film and TV begin to break down, the Fleabag phenomenon, as I've heard it referred to, you know, these things are emerging,
But, what's really fundamental to understand is that, that's one way of presenting work, which is absolutely brilliant, BUT it is moderated and curated by a broadcaster, or a broadsheet. Or you catch their attention, and they let you come on to their channel, where they will then curate your presentation. What the internet gives you is something much closer to the live practice, which is, it's an audience. And in the same way, as you flypost at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, and you get your mailing list for your venues, when you've got shows going out there and, and you send mailouts to them. When you're online, it's the same real immediacy of wanting an audience to see you. And that's obviously absolutely everything you've just said is correct. It's about seeing them back. It's about getting them to see you as an organisation, not just as a single piece of content.
But what do you stand for? Why should they engage with you and continue to engage with you? And how are you going to support that ongoing conversation, because it's a dialogue, a conversation, you know. There's a lot within the broadcast and film industry, which is quite passive. Sit there, and we will put this in front of your eyeballs.
The internet has none of that, you know, it's about freedom of choice, it's people moving through clips on Instagram, at a rate of knots. I's about them wanting to say something, wanting to hear back from you, that's much more dynamic. And I think much closer to the live practice. And it's fascinating, you know, because my feeling about Hannah and Emma is that they've always instinctively wanted to embrace that, and know that's the ground they want to be on. Whether it's about a piece of content that will be presented in a live physical space, or a live online space, or a pre recorded online space, it's still the same nature of engagement, about seeing their audiences and wanting to have a conversation with them about the nature of the work.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 22:02
Fiona, you've written quite a bit about engaging in a global audience and what to think about when it comes to direct engagement with this audience. You're taking out the middleman, you really are looking into the eyes of these people, so to speak, even if it's via social media. Emma, I'm kind of intrigued to hear from you - what are the pros and cons for engaging with perhaps an audience that doesn't necessarily go to the theatre, or always go to art galleries, or museums? Perhaps a younger audience, who we're looking at 'Bubble', which is more about university or students? What are the pros and cons of kind of working with that kind of age range? that audience?
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 22:49
Yeah, I think I think 'Bubble" attracts that audience, not only because of its theme, but also because of its form. So, like my mum - who has been to see everything that I've done, you know, which has been a varying level of provocative - couldn't deal with 'Bubble', because she was just like, 'woh, too busy, I just can't cope'. She's got a Nakia brick as a phone, i's not her world. So I think, I think engaging with younger audiences, well, they're just as brilliant as any other audience, aren't they? Every audience is entirely brilliant. So that audience has always been a core of our audience base anyway, because we find a lot of university students do our plays.
A lot of lecturers like to use our plays as teaching material, people do their dissertations on them. So I guess that element of that younger audience is interesting, because they, quite often come to it through their studies. And so then they've got that analytical head on as they're experiencing it. So whatever course it is that they're taking, it's not always performance, it's not always drama, you know, it can be sociology, or politics or whatever. But they go deep with it, because they're being asked to through, finding it in that educational format. But I think it's sometimes dangerous to think that the online audience are all younger.
Theatre Uncut was born online - we release plays anywhere so that anyone, anywhere can do them, right. And so the only way that you can do that is make it so that people can download them online. That first year, when it was about the cost cuts in public spending, that was a theme that touched a lot of different ages.
And we had a lot of older amateur dramatics companies who were performing the plays, because they cared deeply about the cuts in public spending to you know, healthcare to social care, as well as younger groups. They were engaging with us, they would go on to the website, they would download the play, they would print the play and then they would take it into rehearsals. Then we started looking at how we could link things up more. So even in that first year, there was a kind of 'Skype link up moment' where we had different audiences around the world linked through Skype. So yeah, that might have had a younger element to it to be able to facilitate that technology. But still, there was that wide, wide range of ages that were engaging with us and our work.
At the beginning, that didn't cost us anything. It's like, you know, a really basic website and some free Skype technology. So this stuff can be done, really low fi, really cheap. But it's more important - and we've learned this - that your output has to be of very good quality.
And you have to really be honest and authentic and passionate about what it is that you're trying to achieve. And if you are those things, people will engage. And if you're not those things, they just won't engage. And because it's the internet, you can see it through figures. It's published in front of you, I mean, and that's really stark, like, 'oh, people only watched for three seconds'. Or 'they only watched for 10 minutes?' Oh, it's really kind of a bit terrifying. You can't fool yourself around that.
So yeah, the younger audience are god, they're just extraordinary. I think the one thing that we're learning particularly now is, you know, I very recently turned 40. So the internet came into existence as I was going into drama school. You know, in our world, properly in our worlds kind of 18, 19, 20 time. But the people that have been brought up with it, since they were tiny, the way they understand how to use these platforms in a creative way of storytelling is extraordinary, because their minds are wired in a different way. They've had it in their lives for so long. So when we're doing our in our workshops and lectures with the universities, and we're working with those 18, 19, 20 year old students, this is obvious to them.
Of course, you would do a multi-platform storytelling project, which existed over, you know, TikTok to Insta, and then jumping back into Zoom, like, obviously, that's what you would do, why wouldn't you do that? So, I think what's going to happen is that the generation which is coming up, they are going to create some stuff in theatre, digital theatre, whatever you want to call this crazy form, that's going to blow our minds, it's going to be great. And they're going to push us dinosaurs out of the way pretty fast.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 27:35
That's probably what a lot of people in arts and theatres are slightly a bit apprehensive about, actually. Yeah, I think there can be a fear that a lot of people feel like the digital world is something they should be engaging with. They know that it's something they have to do. But there is almost like a resistance - most of it is from fear. Because as you say, not all of us have grown up with internet around us all the time. It's something over there. And it's something we do here. And in the arts world, onstage performance versus film and cinema have often been seen as two very separate things. So some people could look at what you're doing and think 'are you crazy? You're joining those things together?' Whoa.
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 28:27
I know. But these moments came when people started talking and movies and movies went from black and white to colour right? Hey,
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 28:33
Do you know, people told me that, when TV came in radio would be dead. And I'm still making a living out of audio. So you know,
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 28:39
Podcasts?! Who knew? Podcasts - like the culture was just going to explode? I think in any kind of cultural moment of change - transition revolution, whatever you want to call it - if you're apprehensive, or you don't want to engage with the digital and you really don't, then just don't! Make great plays on stage. Don't try and do something that isn't going to make you happy. But if you feel a bit of fear about it, but it excites you, then just get involved.
I think what we do quite a lot when we're talking to groups about it is like just use your common sense. Don't think of it as this thing which is out of your reach. If you've got a story to tell, how best can you tell that, right? It would be really interesting if your audience had to be perhaps, underneath their bed clothes, and it was only streamed at 4am in the morning, and that was the only way that they could ever experience your piece of work. You can't do that in a theatre can you? Well Punch drunk probably could, but like most companies can't, can they? But you know, what does that feel like? Or does your audience have to be in a very busy space, but on their own, on their headsets? You know, it's not new. People have been doing this for so long. It's just that now this focus has come on to digital, we're all suddenly like, 'wow, it's this new amazing thing.' And it's not just artists being artists.
Fiona Morris, Creative Director of The Space 30:07
You know this Emma, I'd ban the use of the word 'digital'! It's a horrible word. It doesn't mean anything. It's used by certain people to make other people feel like they're a bit stupid and they don't understand things. But it's an umbrella term, it can cover so many things - and nothing - that I would say, don't use it. Talk about online audiences, remote engagement with audiences. If your audiences or your visitors never meet you in the physical space, where does the dialogue exist? What is it? What's the transference of information, of creative ideas? What digital technologies are out there that can enhance, change, transform the nature of experience, creative experience?
And there are two separate things on the first one, any artist or organisation should and can engage with the second one. It's a question of choice. Is it relevant to the art you want to make to use and access some of these new technologies? And I would also pick up on that with the thing that you really, very importantly said, which is not everybody has got great broadband coverage, you know. So the idea that everything is about the instant, instantaneous gratification of being on Instagram, that is not available to many, many, many people. So, if you create a digital asset, you've made something very mobile that you can take or you can enable to be taken to somewhere. but but I think plan is this, but
We had a great example with Hull Truck Theatre Company who wanted to take their pantomime Peter Pan last year into care homes and hospitals and children's hospital wards. Working on the distribution for that with Sarah Fortescue, our Head of Distribution, Sarah was struggling - lots of care home were saying 'yes, love to do it', but struggling to get a date. And so she and I had a conversation one day, we said, Is it okay, if I just ring them up and ask them 'would they prefer a DVD?' And I went, yeah, absolutely. Because that is going to be exactly the issue.
But for all of those care homes, of course, they need two months advanced notice so that they'll have a staff member available to get all the residents in a sitting room with a TV set at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon, and organise it all onto a smart TV. I mean, forget it, they can't do that. But give them a DVD that they can have that week, when it's on in the theatre locally so that they know they're participating in something that is happening in their community, it's a DVD and they can decide when they get everyone sitting down. It's just about the ability of things to make things more accessible. It doesn't always have to be about a broadband connection, because I do you worry that that is excluding a lot of people, particularly for the for the more technological things that use up a lot of bandwidth.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 33:07
Yeah, so there's things that are coming out of the arts like AI, virtual reality, is that something that Theatre Uncut is working on or looking towards in the future? Just curious, Emma, you seem like your up for that, if that's the right term?
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 33:28
Well, we have a secret, it's not that much of a secret, quite a public secret that Hannah Price is already all over this. So she is - alongside being an extraordinary theatre director - she's also a director of performance capture and motion capture for video games, an award winning one. But has also worked in VR 360 camera work and has got an amazing piece called 'In Somebody Else's Shoes' on at the Traverse Festival online at the moment, so go and see that. So Hannah already has this extraordinary wealth of experience in that world that we haven't ever really brought into Theatre Uncut before. And this moment, we are in the midst of doing just that. There's nothing ready to announce just yet. Bringing Hannah's expertise into our culture just seems obvious to do right now.
I can't wait because I'm nowhere near as technologically capable as she is. So I'm really looking forward to learning from her as well as we go through that experience.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 34:37
She sounds like a very handy partner in crime.
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 34:41
She really is a good one.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 34:44
But thank you so much, Emma for just giving us an insight into what happens, how it works, about the fact that you're kind of really jumping into this world with two feet. It's really interesting to hear someone who's kind of striving forward and It sounds like watch this space because there's more to come right?
Emma Callander, Theatre Uncut 35:05
There is Yeah, we never really know what it will be. But it will be great.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 35:09
And I'm sure Fiona, you're looking forward to seeing another ambitious bold, you know - in Emma's imaginary world - 2 million pounds project on your table.
Fiona Morris, Creative Director of The Space 35:20
I can't wait! It lands in the inbox and I'm smiling before I've opened it.
Clare Freeman, podcast producer 35:26
But we hope, if you have been listening to this, whether you work in theatre or another form of art, that this has given you some seeds of inspiration in what is possible and the fact that there is commissioning funding and also support out there. If you're not sure, on all the how, but you have an idea of the what, then The Space or a bunch of other people might be able to make those ideas turn into reality.
More about the things that we've been talking about the articles, the links, are going to be on the thespace.org website. And don't forget, tell a friend, text a colleague about this podcast, share the word, subscribe and follow. We'll be back with another episode, talking to musicians, to more artistic directors, and also talking about how to reach an accessible audience. Bye for now.